A topic for open comments

I have been engaging in an offline conversation with someone who I honestly don’t know (a Twitter follower) that has intrigued me enough to keep it going. While, at times, there have been mild personal assaults that were not strong enough to end the talk, there have been a few things that I would like further thoughts on so I thought I would open this up to your comments and opinions.

Basically, the question at hand from my follower, who calls himself MasterX, is that he feels that submissives who tell their dominants their wants and/or specific things they would like to experience when transitioning into a power based relationship are not truly submissive and are topping from the bottom. He feels the decision to give up power along with a few statements as to why are the only real elements that the sub has in “designing” their future lifestyle. (Please note, he is not speaking of limits and, unlike many people I have run across, I feel this man is a real guy who shows his real feelings through his posts, not just a made up persona who plays the role online because he has the name Master in his handle).

I personally disagree with this and, while I understand that a sub doesn’t get to choose everything, I see nothing wrong with presenting and/or discussing a plethora of needs, desires, and thoughts when negotiating said relationship. Once it starts, I realize that the Dominant has more power to adjust things as they happen, but think a true sub in a real life relationship can and should always speak their minds as, in my opinion, this is a difference between submissiveness and slavery.



  1. Of course, there is endless discussion of this on Fetlife and in the kind community. Even enmity and strife. Would everybody please just calm the fuck down! Live and let live.

    My take on it is that there are people who are willing to submit. I call that submission. They like to submit but don’t crave it. They can kinda do ok without it. There are people who are truly submissive. They need it, crave it. The next level up in my hierarchy is an owned submissive. Finally there is slavery. With each type of relationship, I think there can be slightly different discussions. But discussion is absolutely, definitely necessary.

    I think discussion of what works for someone who submits in any way is absolutely necessary. It’s no use for a Top to be planning scenes and working during a scene and yet doing something or things that don’t really get the Bottom off–don’t really get into his mind and body. It’s the old BDSM checklist stuff plus sincere talks about fantasies and how realistic they may be to try and whether it’s the right time to try.

    I don’t believe in the no-choice sub or slave. To make it work, there has to be conversation. It’s like making relationships work; all cards need to be played face up, like Thumper has done. Having spoken up, he’s getting more of his needs met.

    I have just one more category of play and it’s with people who know each other well. That’s the almost-complete-surprise play. Top and Bottom agree on time, place, and duration of play. Everything after that is chosen by the Top.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Knowledge is power: Simple.

    The more I know, the better I can run our relationship, the better I can get what I want out of it, and out of my submissive, both during play and at other times.

    If Master X thinks that a submissive expressing themselves is topping from the bottom then I’d argue that Master X is a pushover *laugh*. Yeah, I went there. There is some bizarre assumption in it that a submissive expressing themselves somehow takes away the dominant’s power, and that’s just weird. My experience: the opposite is true.

    There’s a huge difference between a submissive sharing their wants and needs and desires and hopes and dreams and all of that stuff that makes up intimacy and closeness, and the submissive running the show (or trying to).

    It’s up to the dominant to choose what to do with all that information, and IF it’s their choice to only ever do things that their submissive wants in the way that their submissive wants them to do it when their submissive wants it, then that’s a valid choice. Nothing wrong with it. Go you!

    And if all that information makes a dominant somehow feel like they now HAVE to pander to their submissive, well, then that’s 100% on them.

    Related: I wrote a post about how ‘topping from the bottom’ is bollocks.


    Liked by 3 people

  3. I need to know what he wants. His needs are important and his limits have to be decided. How can that happen without conversation?

    How I go about getting him there is another matter.

    Doing whatever you want, to/with another person, without discussing anything ahead of time, is not a power *exchange* in my world.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Ferns,

      Very well stated points, I couldn’t agree with you more. As a sub to my wife this topic has been raised several times. I similarly to you believe vulnerable sharing of what makes a submissive tick is pure information for the Dominant to use as desired.

      There are some things I share openly that I don’t necessarily have any desire to experience. I aspire to support my Mistress wife by honestly sharing both my desires and fears. To me this intensifies the leverage within our D/s dynamic.


  4. Very good points. Thank you all. You are right about Thumper. He put his submissive needs out there. He and I talked and talked and talked and talked and, well you get the idea, but in the end, I am much more comfortable when we play and also know the trigger pints that would get his dick harder, assuming he had one when we are together.

    That said, even outside of the D/s time, in our boyfriendship, we both put the needs, desires, and feelings on the table to specifically do what we have to do to make it work and continue to do so so I don’t see D/s play much more different than that in many ways.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. I don’t plan on going into a big long comment but I am constantly writing about how important communication is in ANY relationship, let alone a D/s one. It is a rule that my hubby share his fantasies and desires with me. Not doing this is one of the things that almost ruined our marriage. Being afraid to share what’s on your mind. It is, ultimately, a Dominant’s decision what will happen in the relationship but that doesn’t mean your sub is a mindless warm meat slab.

    Ok like I said I constantly stress how important it is to communicate and that is NOT topping from the bottom. There is a difference between “do this to me now” and “lately I’ve been fantasizing about this.”

    Hope you don’t mind but here is the link to my post on Communication in Chastity (or any Relationship!) http://wp.me/p43vCr-a6


  6. Hi Drew! First off I just want to say that I’m a long-time lurker of both Thumper’s blog and now your blog too. Huge fan!

    I must respectfully disagree with Master X. I think that it is very important for both the Dom & sub to share expectations/needs/desires with each other. I cannot imagine being able to maintain a stable D/s relationship without communication. I would hope he would want to know more about what is going on within his sub’s head.


  7. I’m with you & everyone else on this. I believe there has to be an ongoing discussion between both parties for everything to work. I love the relationship that Lady M & CM have, where he has to share his fantasies & desires with her on a continuous basis. Otherwise, it seems like things would get pretty boring!


  8. A sub should always be able to express themselves and their thoughts on what they want and how they want things to go. That is the difference between a submissive and a slave in my mind. The more you let someone open up themselves to you the better you will be able to understand them and build a relationship with them. That is, if you want an actual relationship with them. Many would also argue that Master/slave is a relationship but my mind, again, would classify it more as a dynamic than a relationship. If that makes sense. I can have a dynamic with someone without having a relationship. I can be Daddy’s babygirl in that moment with a friend but outside of that dynamic in that moment we do not have a relationship. That isn’t to say that you can’t have both, but I don’t see them being one in the same.



  9. I regret I only have but two eyes to roll.

    MasterX sounds like a True Douche Bag.

    Most discussions of True DoMiNANCe and True sUBmiSsion are variations on “you’re doing it wrong,” and FFS, why does it matter? Why does Master Not-So-Fresh-Feeling care what you do or what you call it? Call it “in flight entertainment,” or “organic farming” or whatever-the-fuck else you and your partner want to call it.

    You’re happy, right? Axel is happy, right? Yes? Then we’re done here.

    Unless Master Fresh Rain wants to fuck you, then it’s shouldn’t matter to him… unless he’s insecure about something.

    Sorry, but after hearing about “mild personal assaults,” I’m suspect of anything Master Summer Breeze has to say.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Hello, Drew. My original diatribe on the matter of topping from the bottom: https://yougotomyhead.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/fetlife-rant/

    I won’t bother rehashing and reposting the full rant here. Suffice it to say you rather lost me at mild personal assaults, as I’d expect no less from this kind of day-player who has either watched too much porn on the matter, or read too much “erotica” on the matter.

    Without communication there is no dynamic. We are real people. As much as one may fantasize (from time to time) about being nothing but a set of three holes (or two, don’t let me discriminate) to be used by their D-type (Mistress/Sir/Ma’am/Daddy/whatever) with no say in the matter, and even if that is a negotiated “scene” (I hate this fucking word, by the way), guess what? There still requires some goddamn communication beforehand.

    BDSM dynamics are still relationships, regardless of whether or not there is a boyfriend/girlfriend title, or your D-type and you have decided that you would like to be known as owned property/chattel, etc. Even if you have a slave register number tatted on your forehead, you still consented to it, I’d imagine.

    Part of the reason the power dynamic is so sexy and powerful is because submissives willingly give up control to a person of their choosing. I won’t go all starry eyed about how special the D-type is, in that the s-type chooses them or anything–but that’s the fact of the matter.

    Topping from the bottom is a RIDICULOUS phrase that insecure tops and judgey submissives use to cow people into believing that their dynamics should be THIS WAY or they are “doing it wrong.”

    I feel bad for new submissives he might encounter who don’t know any better. My D-type have been in a collared, I belong to you, basically 24/7 power exchange for the last three years, and we were playing at the dynamic in a less committed way much longer than that. You know what still gets his dick the hardest AND makes him the happiest (Top space and emotional satisfaction)? When I tell him what I want/need, and he can fulfill my desires, be they sexual, or as simple as him brushing my hair from my face and giving me a forehead kiss because I’ve had a bad day. He can anticipate my needs by this point… but boy does he love when I speak about all of my little topping from the bottom bad subbie desires.

    Hope the mild insults aren’t too insulting.



    Liked by 1 person

  11. This is one of those “Internet” discussions. On the Net, apparently a “real” dominant or “real” submissive have certain traits that have been crowd sourced by the community of online people interested in the topic. This self-appointed master has a few problems with his thesis:

    1. D/S is consensual. To be consensual, top and bottom need to negotiate what the relationship will entail. This transcends limits and goes into preferences and wishes. Despite the trappings, this relationship must provide satisfaction to both people.

    2. A silent bottom who never states what works or doesn’t is passive, not submissive. As a former top/master (I had a live-in slave for a decade), I can tell you that nothing is less interesting than a bottom who just “takes” what I give. That is no fun at all.

    3. Most D/S relationships are scene-based. That is, they are episodic and take place over a limited period of time. During those times, the bottom can indeed not express any wishes and the top can appear to be doing whatever he/she wants. However, if there are to be more scenes, the bottom does need to provide feedback.

    In my current role as a chastity bottom, I have to provide feedback and suggestions to my wife/keyholder. I don’t want to insult the Internet tops and bottoms, but in decades of membership in leather organizations, I have never seen one where the bottom never expresses wishes and desires and I have never met a top who objected to that. On the Net it’s a different story apparently.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thank you, CL. Great feedback and very appreciated. I had no idea about you being a former Master, that just made you even more fascinating to me 🙂 Seriously, thanks again for this and all the other comments.


  12. I feel like I have something to say about this but everyone’s already said it. I think CL especially nailed what I would have added. D/s is consensual and consent requires communication and negotiation, period hard stop. Someone who doesn’t believe that should be avoided at all costs.


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